Who's Strongest, Seven Months from South Africa
Mock World Cup draws are fun, and even more so if you have some idea of which nations are strongest coming out of World Cup Qualifying. The first commenter to Friday's article noted the strength of our draw's Group B, but if you have not noticed the strength of Côte d'Ivoire, the quartet may look top-heavy, destined to yield Brazil and the Netherlands.
Even amongst the experts, perceptions of strength vary wildly, but over at Set Piece Analysts, Kartik Krishnaiyer has polled nine writers from around the blog universe and gained an aggregate opinion. Full disclosure: I was one of the nine.
It's no surprise that names like Brazil, Spain, Germany, and the Netherlands would be the consensus favorites. Beyond those four, we start to see not only our first surprises but hints of the expected, impending change in the international soccer world.
All polled were asked to rank the 32 qualifying nations from 1 to 32, with points assigned (32-to-1) to each place. Here are the results:
| Rank | Nation (First place votes) | Points | FIFA Rank | Elo Rank |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Brazil (7) | 286 | 2 | 1 |
| 2t | Spain (2) | 267 | 1 | 2 |
| 2t | Germany | 267 | 6 | 5 |
| 4 | Netherlands | 248 | 3 | 3 |
| 5 | Côte d'Iviore | 242 | 16 | 22 |
| 6 | Italy | 236 | 4 | 6 |
| 7 | England | 233 | 9 | 4 |
| 8 | Argentina | 217 | 8 | 7 |
| 9 | Mexico | 203 | 15 | 8 |
| 10 | Cameroon | 201 | 11 | 20 |
| 11 | Serbia | 181 | 20 | 14 |
| 12 | Denmark | 166 | 26 | 17 |
| 13 | Chile | 153 | 17 | 11 |
| 14 | Portugal | 152 | 5 | 12 |
| 15 | Ghana | 150 | 37 | 42 |
| 16 | Paraguay | 143 | 30 | 29 |
| 17 | Slovakia | 134 | 34 | 48 |
| 18 | South Korea | 128 | 52 | 32 |
| 19 | Slovenia | 125 | 33 | 47 |
| 20 | France | 124 | 7 | 9 |
| 21 | Switzerland | 119 | 18 | 21 |
| 22 | Uruguay | 118 | 19 | 15 |
| 23 | Nigeria | 110 | 22 | 28 |
| 24 | United States | 100 | 14 | 16 |
| 25t | Australia | 91 | 21 | 19 |
| 25t | Greece | 91 | 12 | 23 |
| 27 | Japan | 86 | 43 | 17 |
| 28 | Honduras | 70 | 38 | 33 |
| 29 | Algeria | 40 | 28 | 56 |
| 30 | South Africa | 31 | 86 | 83 |
| 31 | North Korea | 26 | 84 | 82 |
| 32 | New Zealand | 9 | 77 | 74 |
The advantages of using a poll (as opposed to a formula) is flexibility.
If one player is playing particularly well, a voter can pick up on that. It would take a number of positive results (at the team-level) for FIFA or Elo to detect how well Didier Drogba is playing for Côte d'iviore. Very few systems would sniff-out the fact that Cote d'Ivoire's draw with Burkina Faso (last month) came with Didier Drogba a.) on the bench to start the match, and b.) coming off the bench in the 71st minute to immediately score the game-tying goal. Polls can pick up on that.
Polls can also pick up on injuries. Ratings systems will be slow to respond. We see this in the ranking of the United States. After asking voters, it was clear the U.S.'s ranking was influenced by the absence of Charlie Davies and skepticism regarding the Summer 2010 form of Oguchi Onyewu. That explains why the U.S. polls at 8 to 10 ten spots below their conventional rankings.
Us pollsters are also giving the strong African teams an advantage in our rankings. South Africa, Algeria and Nigeria do not get a benefit, but we seem to agree Cote d'Ivîore, Cameroon, and Ghana are likely to outstretch their ratings.
Implicit in that statement, though, is a nod to the ratings as some kind of authority. I hate to disagree with my preceding sentence, but I'm not sure how much we can glean from either the FIFA rankings or Elo. The FIFA rankings are grossly underestimating the Asian nations (save Australia, who just joined the Asian confederation). For example, South Korea - who have finished 4th and 17th at the last two World Cups - are ranked 52nd despite going undefeated in AFC qualifying.
With both the FIFA and Elo rankings, there tends to be a bias towards UEFA teams. Those nations end up bolstering their ratings through playing each other often. It is rare that you see a European team play a meaningful friendly against an African power (though Germany hosted Cote d'Ivoire to a 2-2 draw last Wednesday). That's where a poll like this - undeniably imperfect - can be informative.
Tomorrow we'll take a closer look at two ballots - mine, and that of Jordan Wise from World Soccer Reader - to look at how two voter's perceptions can vary.
What do you think of the SPA rankings? Do you think they are helpful? Be it FIFA, Elo, or SPA, who are the big misses, the right-ons, and the other teams that you think will stay in the headlines come June 2010?
Let's tie up some loose ends, shall we?
- Beyond the mock draw, another interesting part of last Friday's article was the poll, which asked where you thought the U.S. would finish if they were draw in a group with Argentina, Cameroon, and Portugal. Over 200 voters (thank you!) weighed-in, and though the poll is still open, current returns have 79% of readers predicting an early exit for the Yanks, given that draw.
- The groups for the 2010 African Cup of Nations were drawn on Friday, something the Thierry Henry controversy completely overshadowed. Yet another reason to distain that hand ball. The host country, Angola, got an easy draw (thanks to their seed), while Ghana and Côte d'Ivoire were drawn together. I will talk more about this great tournament next week.
- A good question from the comments in Friday's article: What would have happened if Costa Rica won? How would the pots have changed? That question was from user Bingham Lab. Bingham, there seem to be two possibilities: a.) While in 2006 FIFA drew from three even pods of eight, they did not do this in 2002 (the 32-team field only dates back to 1998). FIFA could elect to have a seven team pod and keep CONMEBOL and Africa together, or potentially slide New Zealand in here as a compromise solution, or b.) CONCACAF getting a fourth team combined with the powers of CONMEBOL being seeded could be justification to move the South American teams into the Asia/Oceania pot.
- One thing informing which side FIFA's likely to take on this: CONCACAF is not well respected throughout the rest of the world. Even if CONCACAF had gotten a fourth team, it would have done little to change the perception that the football from this region is Mexico and a number of nations closer to Asian quality than African. The biases in that perception are innumerable, though the United States' success this summer in South Africa did start to chip-away at these barriers.
- User Ryan Rosenblatt has been doing his own mock draws, which you can find here. Helpful: Ryan does some draws with CONCACAF in the same pot as Africa. While I think the odds of that happening are no better than 5-to-1, that's far from a long shot. It could happen. Just like Ryan's comments, his draws are informative, fun.
- User Shoot McGavin asked if there is precedent for replay. There are two examples that people have referenced in the last week: one a result of a sporting gesture from the beneficiaries; the other, an edict from the governing body. In the 1999 English FA Cup, Arsenal scored a match-winning goal against Sheffield United after their opponents had played the ball into touch with the intent of getting an injured Blade treatment. Arsène Wenger offered a replay of Arsenal's 2-1 win. United accepted and lost the replay, 2-1. At the international level, a replay was ordered for a first-leg of the 2005 World Cup qualifying playoff between Uzbekistan and Bahrain. The referee wrongly awarded Bahrain an indirect free kick after an Uzbekistan player infringed upon the penalty box during his teammates' successful penalty kick. The kick should have been retaken. As a result, FIFA ordered a replay, resulting from Uzbekistan's successful protest.
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25 comments
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Comments
Question
I have a question which sort of relates to the post (but not directly, sorry.)
I’m curious why certain countries compete in regions that would be less advantageous to winning a World Cup birth? There seems to be a few geographical oddities. For example, why does Israel, Turkey, Cyprus (though this one makes more sense with its EU membership) and Kazakhstan compete in the European qualifying as opposed to Asia? Surely it would be easier to reach the World Cup finals by attempting to qualify in Asia. It can’t be simply geography— as all of Israel’s neighbors compete in Asia— so how are these determined?
by Michael White on Nov 23, 2009 8:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Australia
For years Australia were pissed by this very fact. They were lumped into some strange group that ultimately only had about half of one berth eventually playing off against the half berth of another group (I can’t remember which). They did successfully get moved to their current group only a few years ago.
It doesn’t answer your question but I think a lot is based on ranking, skewing things so that regions with higher ranked teams (Europe) have more berths other wise you risk the world cup being stuffed with teams ranked 100 and lower.
Blame my wife!
Waiting until August 2010
by sir eccles on Nov 24, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was Uruguay ...
… who Australia had to play in 2005 to advance to Germany. They got through, but only on penalty kicks.
There is a lot of historical legacy in these rankings that is hard to filter out. It’s very difficult to image a system that uses historical data to fairly describe the current world of football. It’s just changing too quickly, particularly in Asia and Africa.
by Richard Farley on Nov 24, 2009 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That was it
To be fair to Fifa they have more members than the United Nations, any system you come up with to whittle those down to just 32 teams is going to leave someone unhappy.
Blame my wife!
Waiting until August 2010
by sir eccles on Nov 24, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed ...
… and I think they do good by letting the confederations decide how to do that, w/i reason.
I have a couple of weird ideas I’ll end up sharing over the next year, but I think there should be more intercontinental play-in opportunities to help allow for the fact that “weighting” the different confederations and assigning them numbers of bids will always be problematic.
by Richard Farley on Nov 24, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's Strange ...
… the basic process behind all of these confederations is an application-acceptance paradigm which transcends the actual geography for which the confederations are named.
Israel was actually kicked out of the Asian confederation in the early 1970s because of the Asian/Arab countries in that federations refusing to play in Israel. They were eventually admitted to UEFA, but it took some time as this was a unique scenario.
Of late, famously, Australia went into the Asian federation from Oceania. They just wanted a higher level of competition, thinking their program would be better for it. OFC agreed. AFC wanted them. FIFA approved.
FIFA does have to approve all these moves.
I believe the same logic holds for Turkey being in UEFA, although there are two other concerns I’ve heard mentioned. First, travel. Turkey is not just closer to most European countries than countries like Korea, Japan, and Australia, but the few Turkish nationals that do play abroad do so (and traditionally have done so) in Europe. The only exception I can really think of is Turks playing in Russia, where large portions have significant Muslim cultures (Tartarstan).
Second, money. The Turkish federation makes a lot more money by bringing in those huge teams every time World Cup or Euro qualifying comes around. Plus, there is the significant chance that Turkey could actually host a Euro.
I hope all that makes sense – a combination of geographic, politics, football concerns, and financial.
by Richard Farley on Nov 23, 2009 10:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Note to self - Read other replies before posting my own rambling incoherent babbling
Thanks Richard for reminding me which groups Australia moved between.
Blame my wife!
Waiting until August 2010
by sir eccles on Nov 24, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No problem!
And as far as reading other replies, I’m always for more people speaking up, not fewer. Because of your comment, maybe some more information got out.
by Richard Farley on Nov 24, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Turkey
Part of Turkey is in Europe (though obviously the larger portion of the country is in Asia) so they have a geographical argument to play in either. And yes, their federation stands to be much wealthier playing in UEFA than in Asia.
by Nico2.0 on Nov 23, 2009 11:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yes ...
… I conveniently overlooked the geographic element with Turkey, and there is the EU connection, too, as a candidate for full membership.
by Richard Farley on Nov 24, 2009 12:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff
That’s a pretty good list, actually, although I think France and Portugal will have things figured out by the summer. Other than the very bottom, there are no cupcakes. Should be a great World Cup, and anyone arguing with the US at #24 hasn’t really been paying close attention.
by orangeorange05 on Nov 24, 2009 12:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
As you know ...
… Ray, people have been arguing. But the whole discussion is pretty interesting.
I agree with you about nations getting it together within the next 6-7 months. I expect France and Argentina to be much more dangerous come June … oh, as well as Italy, though that’s a bit of a given.
by Richard Farley on Nov 24, 2009 12:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm curious as to why you think there is so little chance that CONCACAF is potted with Africa
I think there’s a better chance than not. FIFA will look to do what it can to benefit South Africa and guaranteeing a CONCACAF team as opposed to a South American team would definitely help South Africa.
Formerly ryebreadraz
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Nov 24, 2009 3:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
While it could happen ...
… honestly, Ryan, there is very little reason to think it will.
First, there is the 2006 pods. Those ended up being even pods. CONCACAF was in with AFC. So there’s that recent precedent.
Second, there is the actual strength of the confederations. CONMEBOL is considered second strongest. Africa is generally considered stronger than CONCACAF, and rightfully so. This speaks to balance.
Third, the pods work out perfectly, fairly that way.
Fourth, there isn’t really a reason to think that they would do otherwise. People have mentioned helping South Africa, the logic being they are the hosts. In 2006, there was no effort to help Germany, at least not in this stage of the draw (there are always rumors that FIFA manipulates the team that comes out of the pod, but not the actual pods). In 2002, though Korea and Japan got easy groups, there was no pre-draw manipulation.
In 1998, France got an easy group, a function of them (and the big footballing countries in Europe, which France was not at the time) being seeded.
In 1994, the United States got an extremely difficult group with Romania, Switzerland, and Columbia. The United States example, to me, is the one most like the South African, yet it’s clear there was no manipulation of the group, even though there was so much more reason to try and give the States a primrose path.
Could it happen? Of course it could, though given that there is almost no financial incentive to doing so (there is little money to be made from making sure South Africa, with the low percentage of the World Cup’s profits to come from domestic South African streams), it would be a strange choice. There is no obvious historical precedent for doing so, and it would be largely viewed as unfair and inexplicable.
I say all this acknowledging it very well could happen. But honestly, Ryan, at this point, we have no reason to think it will.
by Richard Farley on Nov 24, 2009 11:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Just to add ...
… that I really do think it COULD happen: CONCACAF not being put into Asia’s pod. I’m just not sure there’s any real reason to think that CONCACAF will be in another pod. That said, there’s not a ton beyond 2006 to say the scenario I’ve been writing about will happen. Sure there’s “fairness” and “symmetry,” but honestly, FIFA could have other reasons for creating whatever pods they want.
I don’t buy into the idea that FIFA needs South Africa in the second round, though.
by Richard Farley on Nov 24, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Romania, Switzerland, and Columbia is a difficult group ?
LOL
Take a look at the group F on world cup 2002 (argentina, nigeria, england, sweden).
I think this world cup will be awful because it’s played outside europe so brazil will dominate, as always when it’s played outside europe.
by julolo on Nov 24, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Trying to think ...
… if I should have a policy of responding to comments that include “LOL,” given we’re off to such a good start here; however, there is some information to be gleaned here.
It’s easy to look at where Romania, Columbia, and Switzerland are now and forget that a.) Romania was good enough to be a “seed”, and b.) Columbia may have only be Pele’s pick to win it all, but they were well respected, regardless, with some all-time classic players. Switzerland was not only very well respected but we good enough to get out of a group with Romania and Columbia.
You cited one group that was tougher, but that doesn’t mean the U.S.‘s group in 1994 was easy. We weren’t talking about all-time difficult groups. We are talking about groups host countries were given. The 2002 World Cup was in Korea/Japan.
by Richard Farley on Nov 25, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was for the USA dude
Not sure what team would want that draw. It was a much easier draw for Romania, Switzerland, and Columbia.
by Cool Dudes on Nov 25, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Three Lions
I think England has what it takes to win their first Cup since 1966. The players, when healthy, lead the squad to a real strong run through the qualifications. They faced teams they should have beaten up, and the beat them up. That said, you need healthy a healthy Gerrard, Lampard, and Terry to get this going. If they need to know who can fit that second striker spot under Rooney, I think it would be insane at this point if they pass up on Defoe.
If they drew that kind of group, like in the mock, that would only give them that much more speed into the tournament stages.
PensBurgh penalty - Lavender - 2 Minutes for Deking a Duper Deke that made a Duper Duck.
by Lavender on Nov 24, 2009 11:26 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree, Lavender ...
… and although I will not pick England, this is their best shot in my lifetime, in my opinion.
by Richard Farley on Nov 24, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
as a person wearing his 2002 Michael Owen shirt, I have to say their best chance came when Owen was in his prime in 2002. They simply ran into Brazil when Ronaldo was on another planet offensively. I could do a long write up on Owen though, one of my all time favorites, and I wish he can still manage a way on the squad.
The area I think that’s best helped the team has been through their coach. Fabio comes from winning environments, thrives for it, and I think the players bring that out on the pitch. Even in some of their recent games, like the friendly to Brazil, their young guys who’ll be on the bench, or less, fought hard and stayed even for a long time to a team people still see having great odds at winning the Cup.
PensBurgh penalty - Lavender - 2 Minutes for Deking a Duper Deke that made a Duper Duck.
by Lavender on Nov 24, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, I agree ...
… Capello has England playing a style that fits their talent, and while it might not be the most talented England side of my lifetime, I think the tactics plus the belief in them has England in … well, as good a place as they can be.
Capello has really earned all the accolades he’s gotten, and while you must be sorry to see Owen is unlikely to be chose, at least Capello has a clear idea of how he wants to get England to their goals.
by Richard Farley on Nov 24, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Though, the mixed media I read in the UK never seems to know what’s up with Owen. Sounds like people support the idea of him being on, after a match like Brazil, and then his rare start with Manchester United didn’t get over as big as it could, but I find that to be weak because you can’t expect anyone to get that scarce of playing time and magically pepper a goal in your first start in ages.
I guess it comes with his territory though. I still say, when Michael Owen was just in his last days of Liverpool and first year of Real Madrid, he was the greatest goal scorer in the world.
That all said, I’m really impressed by Defoe exploding on to the scene, and any pressure England can take off Rooney to be the man that has to score is all the better. To boot, I find it amazing Rooney went from being sent off in the last World Cup to being Captain material in the next. Seems like everyone who was a part of the last few squads have all matured for this stage.
PensBurgh penalty - Lavender - 2 Minutes for Deking a Duper Deke that made a Duper Duck.
by Lavender on Nov 24, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
England always has what it takes
If they make it to the competition.
Just stay away from PKs.
by Cool Dudes on Nov 25, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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