The Guild of Health: Group F
The analytics agree that Group F is the least threatening quartet, a conclusion with which I disagreed, and I don't see it as that close.
The top teams in the groups (Italy and Mexico) are comparable, and if you want to argue that Mexico is the stronger team today, I would knock you off your soapbox, grab your megaphone, and ... and trumpet El Tri's cause. At the same time, we've seen this routine from Italy before, and unlike a France side that laid an egg in 2002, Italy always finds a way to be competitive and get out of their group (they've done so every final since 1974).
The next level of the groups - the second and third teams - where we see the real distinctions between groups A and F.
In Group A you have two talented but overrated sides, France and Uruguay, who barely qualified and show no sign of finding form commensurate with their abilities. In Group F, you have the winner of the deepest UEFA group (Slovakia) and the most consistent team in CONMEBOL qualifying (Paraguay) who show almost no sign of going flat before South Africa.
The quality of the top three nations in Group F may be stronger than groups B, C and D, and while I do not agree that the best in each of those groups outclass the Italy, Paraguay, Slovakia triad, Group F was an Australia away from looking more like D than A.
As the seventh-toughest, second-easiest group for the 2010 World Cup in South Africa, I present the Guild of Health: Group F.
| Group F | Rankings | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Nation | Elo | FIFA | SPI | SPA | Avg. |
| Italy | 6 | 4 | 12 | 6 | 7 |
| Paraguay | 29 | 30 | 18 | 16 | 23 |
| Slovakia | 48 | 34 | 50 | 17 | 37 |
| New Zealand | 74 | 77 | 91 | 32 | 69 |
Elo - Elo Rating; FIFA - FIFA World Ranking, December 2009; SPI - Soccer Power Index, Silver/Soccernet; SPA - Set Piece Analysts World Cup Power Poll; Avg. - Statistical mean of four measures
The rankings do not like this group as much as Group A, where three teams ranked 14th or better. Here, while Italy has a strong average of 7, neither Paraguay nor Slovakia are thought of highly. But just as Italy is not playing as the 4th (FIFA) or 6th (Elo) best side in the world, neither are Paraguay or Slovakia as poor as their ratings.
Italy - As much as any nation in the world, Italy has a concept of a World Cup cycle. That is the reason why this three-time World Cup winner has not won the European Championships in over 40 years. For them, that tournament is part of the building process for the World Cup, so while they looked poor in Austria/Switzerland and only slightly better in qualifying (after the return of Marcello Lippi), don't expect regression from the Azzurri.
Their uninspired form (which still got them seven wins and three draws in ten qualifying matches) is the floor. They will be no worse in 2010 than they were in 2009.
That is not to say they are without question, and Italy's history indicates they may be set for an "off-year" in 2010.
Italy's strong Cups seem to come ever-other tournament. The Italians were strong in 2006, winning the tournament. They won their groups in each of 1998 and 1990, and though they finished second in their group in 1982, they did not lose a match in route to winning the tournament.
In contrast, Italy has group stage finishes of second, third, and second in 2002, 1994, and 1986 (respectively), though their third pace group stage finish in 1994 was followed by a penalty kicks loss to Brazil in the tournament's final.
If that on-year, off-year patten holds, Italy will struggle in South Africa, but patterns do not exist independent of causes. In addition to the way Italy cycles their players, squad, and program for World Cups, are there reasons to believe Italy's lackluster form will continue?
I see two:
First, age.
The Azzurri have a series of players on the wrong side of 30. Starting from the back and moving forward (and only considering players who could break a starting XI): goalkeeper Gianluigi Buffon (32, in South Africa); defenders Fabio Cannavaro (36), Gianluca Zambrotta (33), Fabio Grosso (32), Nicola Lagrottaglie (33); midfielders Andrea Pirlo (31), Mauro Camoranesi (33), Genaro Gattuso (32), Massimo Ambrosini (33); forwards Antonio Di Natale (32), Vincenzo Iaquinta (30), Luca Toni (33).
It's not fair to look at the older players without taking into account younger talents, but there-in lies the problem. The list of young contributors to the national side is far shorter than the twelve aging stars that help form the team's backbone. Giorgio Chiellini (25 for South Africa) looks a good choice at center back, and Riccardo Montolivo (25) has been frequently capped over the last three years. Thanks to the fading of his competition, Giuseppe Rossi (23) now looks a good bet to head south with the squad.
Aside from that, the youth movement has stalled, with Italy having trouble finding spots for the David Santons, Claudio Marchisios, and Mario Balotellis.
Bringing back Marcello Lippi in the wake of Euro 2008 was the Italian federation's way of saying "we are willing to give this group one more try." Else, they would have brought in another coach, one with whom they could build for 2012.
By bringing back the coach that gave them victory in Germany, they're looking to turn back the clock. With this roster, it may be too late.
The second reason to think Italy's poor form can continue: The Azzurri have problems in attack; specifically, finding an impact striker.
Toni is getting old and was ineffectual in Germany. It's unclear whether Alessandro del Piero or Francesco Totti are going to be options (or how good they will be, if taken). That leaves a decent strike force of Rossi, Di Natale, Iaquinta, and Alberto Gilardino, but there is not a international-level match-winner amongst them. Most countries in the world would be thrilled to have that quartet (and somebody like Balotelli in reserve), but this is not most countries.
While Gilardino has a very good goal scoring record at the international level, Italy will need to improve an attack that got 18 goals in 10 qualifying matches, a rate matched or bested by seventeen nations in UEFA.
Paraguay - The Paraguayans have qualified for the last three World Cups. They made it out of group stage in 1998 and 2002 and finished 18th in Germany. In qualifying, they finished third in a region where, after going 4-1-0 to start qualifying, they were never far from the top of the table.
So why no respect from the rankings or the media? Let's take the media first.
Paraguay has relatively few of their important players playing in European leagues, so unless you're watching club soccer in the Western Hemisphere, you are not seeing the impact-making Paraguayans. Complicating things further, the Western Hemisphere coverage you get in the States is almost all MLS, so a great league like Mexico - where many of the influential Paraguayans are playing - fails to get exposure.
Nothing that happens in the Mexican leagues will get adequate coverage in the North American, English-speaking press.
Add in CONMEBOLs qualifiers being overshadowed (on this continent) by Europe (for the names and history) and CONCACAF (understandable, and because of some rare time zone conflicts) and Paraguay is rarely discussed.
That does not explain why the ranking systems don't value the Paraguayans, but again this gets back to not having their players in Europe.
Because Brazil and Argentina have so much of their core's talent in Europe, those federations will take in-season friendlies there to cut down on their player's travel. In addition, the Brazilians and Argentines are draws - money-makers for federations trying to sell tickets to exhibitions.
While Paraguay did play their last friendly in France (though it was against Qatar) and the Netherlands, their four preceding friendlies had been in Chile, South Korea, Peru, and Oman.
While there is still a good amount of travel there, the fixture list lacks the quality of opposition required to boost ratings. Consider in the last two years Argentina has played European-based friendlies against Spain, France, Russia and Scotland while hosting Ghana in Córdoba. Paraguay is just not doing enough to look better to the FIFA rating system.
That does not mean they are not a good team. Ratings are one thing, quality is another, and Paraguay has quality.
More often than not, the Paraguayans play a straight 4-4-2, the backbone of which is Real Valladolid goalkeeper Justo Villar and defenders Paulo da Silva (Sunderland) and Julio César Cáceras (Boca Juniors).
(Note: The article originally included a reference to Juventus's Martín Cáceras, who is Uruguyan - not Paraguayan.)
In the middle, Cruz Azul's Cristian Riveros orchestrates an extremely talented group of options that includes Edgar Benítez (forward, Pachua), Salvador Cabañas (forward, Club América), Oscar Cardozo (forward, Benfica), Osvaldo Martínez (midfielder, Monterrey), Jonathan Santana (midfielder, Wolfsburg), and Nelson Váldez (forward, Borussia Dortmund).
Váldez and Cabañas are the choice partnership for coach Gerardo Martino, combining for eleven goals in qualifying. Cabañas, in particular (with 12 goals in the 2009 Mexican Apertura), is set to make an impact in South Africa.
If he or another attacker finds a run of form in June, Paraguay goes from "likely to advance" to "legitimate threat." Only once in 18 qualifiers did the Paraguayans allow more than two goals, letting-in only 16 for the qualifying tournament. While their goal scoring record (24) left something to be desired, they will be a difficult match for a triad of Group F squads with questions in attack.
Slovakia - Like the Paraguayans, the Slovaks are considered weak merely because they are less known than the world's elite, overshadowing the fact that the talent drop-off in world soccer between relative superstar and anonymous professional means little after the first whistle is blown. How anonymous players like Martin Skrtel (Liverpool) and Marek Hamsik (Napoli) should be in this market is debatable, but it is still not uncommon to see analysis of the Slovaks completely ignore these two world class players.
Skrtel pairs with Lokomotiv Moscow center back Jan Durica to form a solid pairing in front of Ján Mucha.
That pairing did allow a relatively high goals-per-game (1.0) in qualifying, but their group with the deepest in Europe. With Slovenia, the Czech Republic and Poland, the Slovaks had a group filled with recent World Cup qualifiers, not to mention Northern Ireland, a team that sat in second place for much of the cycle. Against this competition, Slovakia went 4-0-1 on the road and never gave up more than two goals in a match.
While Hamsik is their most talented and dangerous player (capable of creating a goal at any time), Stanislav Sesták is the producer, leading their qualifying group with six goals. The 26-year-old attacker players more of a supporting role than target man, and his play for club and country has sparked rumors of him stepping-up from Bundesliga Bochum by the end of the World Cup.
With Stesák only 26, and Hamsik only 22, the key for Slovakia's chances in South Africa could be how they and additional young players like Vladimir Weiss (20, Manchester City), Miroslav Stoch (20, FC Twente), and Lubos Hanzel (22, Schalke) improve for the World Cup. Those players will need to provide depth in support of Stesák, Hamsik, Skrtel and Jucina.
Without contributions from those emerging talents, it's difficult to see Slovakia challenging the group's top two.
New Zealand - I don't want to minimize New Zealand's accomplishment in making this tournament, but the ease of their qualification route bares mentioning, if for no other reason than to inform of their quality.
New Zealand is now the big fish in the small pond that is Australia-less Oceania. The Kiwi's biggest challenges in the region are New Caledonia (who have only one player playing outside the New Caledonian league, and he plays in Tahiti) and Fiji, who have six players in the New Zealand league and the rest playing in their domestic circuit.
New Zealand went 5-0-1 in qualifying, but given their loss and five goals allowed, it seems pertinent to ask which of the other World Cup qualifiers would have done worse. Would North Korea have even allowed a goal?
New Zealand got through a two-legged playoff with Asia's fifth place team, Bahrain, when a Rory Fallon 135th minute goal (45th minute of the second leg) held up, with Mark Paston saving a penalty kick that would have put Bahrain through.
And that was New Zealand's toughest match in qualifying.
Regardless, the Kiwis are here, but between results, form, and talent, they look the tournament's weakest team. They have Blackburn captain (defender) Ryan Nelson, Chris Killen at Celtic, and two players in English league football (Fallon and Chris Wood). The rest of their team, aside from San Jose Earthquake midfielder Simon Elliott (if he makes the trip), is playing in New Zealand.
At the Confederations Cup this summer, New Zealand got only one point and failed to score a goal in a group that included South Africa and Iraq.
Congratulations to the Kiwis on making the World Cup. I hope it spurs interest in the game in New Zealand.
Oceania should not be its own confederation.
Worthless Predictions
June 14, Cape Town: Paraguay 2, Italy 0 - Italy gets off to a slow start and Paraguay wins the match after six months of preparing through dreams. This early in the tournament, Italy's attack is too impudent to break down the Paraguayans, while their age at the back struggles with the various Paraguayan options.
June 15, Rustenberg: Slovakia 3, New Zealand 0 - The Slovaks roll and briefly give the impression that they can get out of this group. Meanwhile, new Kiwi-supporters start to wonder what they've gotten themselves into.
June 20, Nelspruit: Italy 2, New Zealand 0 - Marcello Lippi spends this match preparing his team for what he knows will be a win-and-in match four days later against Slovakia. The Italians get an early goal (or two) and spend the rest of the match with their cards held to their vests.
June 20, Bloemfontein: Paraguay 1, Slovakia 1 - Paraguay controls the match but, after their convincing victory against Italy, have a bit of a let-down, being unable to get a second goal which, though they found it against Italy, they also had trouble finding in qualifying.
June 24, Polokwane: Paraguay 4, New Zealand 1 - The Paraguayans not only control the match but put up a score (just in case the Slovaks get through). The Kiwis get a late goal for pride, with the Paraguayans knowing that Slovakia is not turning the differential around.
June 20, Nelspruit: Italy 1, Slovakia 0 - The Slovaks made a good run, getting to four points through two matches, but as down as Italy may be, this is not the year they lose to the Slovaks. At least, I don't see it happening if the Azzurri are given a win-and-in match.
| Group F | GP | W | D | L | GF | GA | Pts |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Paraguay | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 7 | 2 | 7 |
| Italy | 3 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 6 |
| Slovakia | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 2 | 4 |
| New Zealand | 3 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 9 | 0 |
0 recs |
26 comments
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Comments
Thanks again for the analysis...
What are the tiebreakers if teams tie in group play? GF v GA? Moving on could be decided by how many goals one gets against New Zeland. A 1 or 2 nill game could feel like a loss.
Never mistake effort for achievement.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 14, 2009 4:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
To my understanding ...
… the tiebreakers are goal difference and then goals scored. After that, it depends if it’s a two-way or three-way tie, thought the principles are the same for weak: most points obtained amongst the tied teams, then greatest goal differential (among those teams) and the goals scored. After that, drawing lots … maybe playoff? I … just looked it up, and it could be either, depending on the circumstances.
by Richard Farley on Dec 14, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i remember that in the euro 2008 we almost had penalties between czech republic and turkey in the first round, because they were tied in every tiebreaker and played in the final game.
So if it works like in the euro cup, if they play each other there’s penalties, otherwise there’s a coin flip.
"Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I don't like that attitude. I can assure them it is much more serious than that." Bill Shankly
And Vincent saw the corn
And Einstein the number
And Zeppelin the Zeppelin
And Johan saw the ball
--Dutch cabaret song
by SantiagoColombia on Dec 14, 2009 7:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If I'm not mistaken ...
… and correct me if I am, UEFA actually uses different tiebreaker rules than FIFA. To my knowledge, FIFA does not have a penalty kick option.
Does anybody have a reference they know of that can clarify things?
by Richard Farley on Dec 14, 2009 10:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nice analysis again, RF
just wondering about your thoughts on marcelo lippi’s (is marco his nickname? you put that down a couple of times…) strategy for defense. that seemed to be his/italy’s strength in 2006, and what got them through all games with only 2 play-time goals allowed in 7 games. i haven’t been watching their qualification games, but i do wonder if anybody has detected the same kind of defensive impenetrability as before? and i don’t mean just a goal count which can be a deceptive stat when the team is fine tuning, but in their game style and strategy.
don't care if i ever get back.
by AV on Dec 14, 2009 7:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Regarding Italy's defense ...
… I think Lippi is just trying to play to the strengths of his players, and he has a bunch of players that have been brought through systems where the Italian philosophy of waiting to exploit opponents mistakes has gained a lot of prevalence. You look at their side an you imagine de Rossi winning a ball, taking two touches before playing a ball long to Gilardino, who holds and leaves it for an on-rushing Camoranesi, who finds a trailing Pirlo.
That would be a classic Italian counter, recoiling from a defensive stance, waiting to exploit the opportunities you give them as you overextend into attack.
As we’ve sen many times before in recent World Cups, Italy will wait you out. As we saw in the last European Championships, it’s not always successful.
This team is vulnerable because it’s unclear that players like Cannavaro, Zambrotta and Grosso are at the point of their careers where they can consistently win the match-ups, execute the decisions this tactic is dependent upon. There is a reason that Cannavaro was selected best player in the World Cup, the world in 2006. Four years later and still relying on getting performances like that, can Lippi’s approach hold up as their defense starts to crack.
This is why … and I didn’t go into this in the article … Daniele de Rossi is so important to this team. He can cover up some of the problems, help destroy the attacks before the can stress the Azzurri weaknesses …
.., but as you will see in the coming weeks, I just don’t see that being enough.
by Richard Farley on Dec 14, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lippi's philosophy seems sound and enviable
pick your players, find the best scheme for them to play by according to their strengths. though perhaps his players could be at a better point of their career, as you suggest, he doesn’t force them into things they can’t do just because he thinks it’s a better scheme.
seeing all things futbol through my albiceleste-colored glasses, i say this is enviable because i’ve witnessed two extremely different approaches that work so badly. bielsa in 2002, with his super-rigid scheme and the good players he poured into it, like molten glass into a mold, but to no great effect since once an opposing team logically solved the scheme, especially defending, the offensive threat shattered and there was nothing else argentina knew how to do. and maradona now, who seems to think that by just putting great players on they’ll invent for themselves a scheme that works—a questionable tactic for a coach to favor, which he then sabotages by broadly changing the makeup of the team every game.
don't care if i ever get back.
by AV on Dec 15, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
argentina:
i’m proofing the next article now, but argentina is in it, and we see maradona’s “journey” the same. i see his reasons for changing it, but i don’t necessarily agree with them.
by Richard Farley on Dec 15, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And on the name ...
… those were just typos, but interesting that I used “Marco” twice. That was not intended at all. I’m actually a very, very poor typist. I never really had typing classes as a kid, and while I’m actually quite quick on the keystrokes, I lack technique and a kind of “hand-eye-coordination” that would prevent things like “Marco” instinctively coming off my fingers, even though I’m thinking “Marcello.”
by Richard Farley on Dec 14, 2009 11:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if you close your eyes and type "marco"
are we all supposed to reply “polo?”
(hope the joke comes through.)
don't care if i ever get back.
by AV on Dec 15, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the joke not only came through ...
… but got a smile.
by Richard Farley on Dec 15, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You totally had me until the predictions
No ties for Italy!!!??? What have you been drinking and where can I get some?
Having played, “one of these things aren’t like the other” numerous times with my daughters it seems to me ‘A’ and ‘F’ have something very much in common that results in them being one of the softer groups (where ‘A’ thing out of place is among out of place team out of seeded teams).
I don’t know why we beat up on New Zealand so much when a 3rd place CONCACAF showing isn’t much better. I think that both Oceania and CONCACAF shouldn’t be a confederation.
by Cool Dudes on Dec 14, 2009 8:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Alert to FIFA:
They’ve invented these things called “Jets”
by Cool Dudes on Dec 14, 2009 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nicely done
Great implicit question, and I like how you put it.
I think the order of matches is what matters, as far as Italy not getting ties. If they got Slovakia, then Paraguay, then New Zealand, I think they would end up 1-2-0. I think they will start slow and lose to the comparable, amped Paraguayans, and then getting New Zealand second – I just think that’s an easy call. In a must-win against Slovakia, I think they get three.
But if the order of matches was different, I would see a couple of draws.
by Richard Farley on Dec 14, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Italy
I wonder about their style with an aging team. Lots of defending and chasing. I have never found the Italian style to be all that enjoyable to watch despite the results. In the 2006 knockout stages, I thought they got real lucky in who they played and when they played those teams, not to mention Zidane going nuts.
Never mistake effort for achievement.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 15, 2009 7:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I do, too ...
… but I think that Lippi is making the right choice in playing this style with this group. It’s yet another reason why Italy needs to bring in its next generation of players and start the transition. I think the “best case scenario” for this group is below what the Azzurri would normally expect.
by Richard Farley on Dec 15, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You never know...
Buffon was also outstanding in 2006. Keeper play like that can carry you very far.
Never mistake effort for achievement.
by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 15, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And that often happens ...
… in big tournaments: Some player will outperform expectations, and while I’m not sure that you can say Buffon (or Cannavaro) performed so far beyond their established levels, sports analysis is often flawed because the unexpected, unpredictable is inherent in the matches. If you predict those things before hand – even if your end up correct – it’s really just wish-casting.
Like almost all sports analysis, these pieces are written on top of a premise: “Based on what we know …”
by Richard Farley on Dec 15, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Italy
Look, Mexico is really good, but Italy’s players are better than Mexico, even with the admitted age problems. Rossi, Gilardino, etc. are better than anyone on Mexico’s roster. Plus if they bring Balotelli and he comes off the bench for the last 20-30 minutes of games, watch out.
The guys who are 33 years old and up could be a problem but ages 30-32 like Iaquinta they still have plenty of gas left in them.
Italy doesn’t need to score more than 1.8 goals per game if they limit opponents to less than 1 goal per game.
Cust is the new Jaha.
by johnjahafanclub on Dec 15, 2009 1:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree ...
.. with almost everything you say. Italy’s players are better than Mexico, but I like Mexico’s mix better, I certainly like their form more, and I think they have a style that’s working. Italy certainly has a style, and it’s the style they have to play, so I suppose their mix of talent is just weird, right now.
Are we even sure Balotelli is an Italian-international in June?
I agree with your assessment of Gilardino, but I will wait and see on Rossi on the international level.
But on the whole, there are certainly reasons to like Italy. They just need to show they can play better than they have, and with an aging team, it’s more likely they’ll get worse than better.
by Richard Farley on Dec 15, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Martin Caceres
Doesn’t he play for Uruguay instead of Paraguay?
I spent more effort eating a pudding than Tyler Arnason skated last year.
by Shoeshiner on Dec 20, 2009 3:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Correct ...
… which explains why I had to describe him as "could break in," an egregious mistake on my part. Apologies, all.
by Richard Farley on Dec 20, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And ...
… I have made a couple of other errors like this that I caught post-publish, just poor analysis/fact-checking on my part. This one was writing about Julio César Cáceras, thinking "What about Martín Cáceras," including a reference and never remembering "He’s not Paraguayan."
Anytime anybody notices something like that, please bring it up. Or, if you ever have any questions about something … these mistakes unfortunately happen, especially when I over-write some of these pieces.
by Richard Farley on Dec 20, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lol no worries. I happen to be a Juve fan, so I just caught this. Great stuff though, I love the in-depth reviews of the different nations and predictions!
I spent more effort eating a pudding than Tyler Arnason skated last year.
by Shoeshiner on Dec 21, 2009 3:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks ...
… unfortunately, this is going to happen from time to time. A lot of us who love to write about the sport do so in the late hours of the morning as we try to break-through while juggling a “normal” life.
What are you feelings on Ferrara? Juve isn’t one to change mid-stream .. but yeesh, this is getting bad.
by Richard Farley on Dec 21, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You know, I though we were bad with Ranieri, but damn we’ve hit a nadir (watch as they hire someone worse). But I think while Ferrara clearly has no business being a head coach of any team in the world, let alone the most-supported team in Italy, it’s not entirely his fault. The team itself is just not built to win anything. The players on the starting XI don’t scare anybody any more. The reason we used to win Scudettos for fun (other than our, uh, “friendly relationship” with the refs) is that we go into most games knowing we’ll win, and the other team go in knowing they’ll get nothing. Now it seems we are afraid of teams like Cagliari and Catania.
Then again, we are only a few years removed from being a Serie B side (a ridiculously talented Serie B side that destroyed all competition, but Serie B side nonetheless). I think I’m a rare breed in the football world: a patient fan. I’m willing to wait a couple years for them to get back to their dominant form. Still, Ferrara must go.
I spent more effort eating a pudding than Tyler Arnason skated last year.
by Shoeshiner on Dec 22, 2009 3:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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