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The Club of Common Cold: Group C

Clint Dempsey will need to bring his Fulham-form to South Africa for the United States to have a chance to get out of a balanced Group C.  (Photo via Newscom)

Clint Dempsey will need to bring his Fulham-form to South Africa for the United States to have a chance to get out of a balanced Group C. (Photo via Newscom)

As we move forward with our analysis or the World Cup groups (and our names, attempting to add color, start to get slightly more absurd), the best teams in the quartet get better while the teams at the bottom project as more strident challengers. 

That is why Group C - while on first blush seeming similar to (perhaps weaker than) groups A (The Tribe of Life)F (The Guild of Health) and B (The Fraternity of Inconclusive Diagnosis) - distinguishes itself.

For all their stylistic and talent limitations, England (in the Capello-era) has given us reason to think them better than France, Italy and Argentina (the highest FIFA rated teams in the groups previously reviewed).

At the other end of the group, all of Algeria, Slovenia and the United States have won showcase, showdown matches within the last six months.  

To get in, Algeria won a neutral-site playoff against arch-rival, continental champion Egypt.  Slovenia won a two-legged tie against one of the secretly most talented teams in the world (Russia), while the United States not only snapped Spain's 35-match unbeaten streak but also got a very difficult, under-appreciated win in Honduras.

But despite those strong performances and the form of the group's seed, nobody will mistake this group for one of the tournament's toughest.  There are no easy matches, but the group presents is the type of path with which most seeds would be happy.  

In other World Cup draws, this could have been one of the easiest groups, but in a year where a weak host side gets seeded and a couple of traditional powers are still looking to find their stride, Group C is flops down in the middle of the distribution.

Still four steps away from the Group of Death, I present, as the fifth-most-difficult group for the 2010 World Cup in South Africa, the Club of Common Cold:  Group C.

Star-divide

Group CRankings
Nation Elo FIFA SPI SPA Avg.
England 4 9 3 7 6
United States 16 14 16 24 18
Slovenia 47 33 37 19 34
Algeria 56 28 46 29 37

Elo - Elo Rating; FIFA - FIFA World Ranking, December 2009; SPI - Soccer Power Index, Silver/Soccernet; SPA - Set Piece Analysts World Cup Power Poll; Avg. - Statistical mean of four measures

With an average ranking of 6, England is recognized (by our metrics) as the strongest side reviewed to date.  Elo and SPI see them as semifinal contenders, a level they have not reached in since 1990.  

Beyond England, the ratings see United States as a weak wing-man, while Slovenia and Algeria's averages of 34 and 37 put them amongst the lower rated teams in the draw.

So it's incumbent on me to explain why I see the reality on the pitch as different from the rankings.  Why is this group ranked 5th by yours truly?

While I see both the England and United States's ratings as fair, the recent form of Slovenia and Algeria make these ratings - ratings which take a long-term look at nation's success - as understatements.  Both Slovenia and Algeria are much better.  If your group's weakest nation is one of them, your group lacks potholes.

England - Possibly the most polarizing team in the draw as it concerns critical opinion, England is neither one of the strong contenders nor a side without a chance.  That so many fans put them in these camps speaks to that polarization.

While it's difficult to see England beating teams like Brazil and Spain, they match-up well with a number of the second-tier powers.  Fabio Capello's version of England - easily winning a UEFA qualifying group that included Croatia and Ukraine - is stronger than the struggling powers (Argentina, France, Italy, Portugal).  With the Netherlands' tendency to break down at the back late in close matches and Germany's form struggling to stay ahead of declining talent (until a ton of youth revitalizes the team), England's new-found solidity puts them in the middle of the tier below the two titans.

The key is Capello.  The former Milan, Real Madrid, Roma and Juventus boss has augmented England's deficiencies by instilling a rigid, consistent system that takes advantage of what England does best.  He's forgone any fantasies of trying to transform this side into a more continental squad.  

Building around England's physical strength and willingness to work, Capello has brought a discipline, accountability, and mental toughness that has made them both consistent and very good.  Catch phrases like "mental toughness" and "accountability" sound like analytical clichés - I admit - but in this case, I see it as the truth.  

Capello has settled on a formation (4-4-2 with a flat midfield and a big man-little man tandem up-top), decided where Steven Gerrard will play, and has concentrated on getting the Lions playing at their best within those constraints.  That is why you saw such great qualifying results, including stamping out their latest bogey team (Croatia) in two convincing wins (9-2 aggregate over the FIFA tenth rated team in the world).

But for all they've improved, England's three recent friendlies against the world's elite have shown their limitations.  

In February, England lost to Spain 2-0 in a match controlled by the Spaniards.  In August, England got a 2-2 draw with the Netherlands where their best XI were dominated in the first half.  In November, England lost 1-0 to Brazil in Doha.

England can only play one way, and they lack the technical skill, speed, or athleticism to consistently compete with Brazil and Spain.  They do not have the midfield players to take the ball off the Spanish feed (unless Owen Hargreaves gets healthy), and eventually John Terry and company will incorrectly answer one (or more) of Spain's questions.  The Brazil problem is of greater concern, as Dunga and the Selecão beat England at their own game.

With players like Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard, England has just enough elite attacking talent to distance themselves from the threat less-talented sides pose to their conservative approach.  But while England managed 34 goals in ten qualifying matches (testament to both their capabilities and the lack of defending in their group), the accountable approach instilled by Capello becomes inherently conservative against more difficult competition.  When that happens, it will be up to Rooney and Gerrard to be special.

There are two other players that will have to be special, elite, world-class superlative:  John Terry and Rio Ferdinand.  There are few doubts about Terry, whose continued improvement from an already superb player has made him the world's best central defender over the last two seasons.  Ferdinand, however is a huge doubt, having been out of Manchester United's lineup for two months after a horrible start to his Premier League campaign.  The drop-off from Ferdinand - in the "best of" conversation with Terry, at his best - and Matthew Upson could be the biggest difference between a semi-final appearance and a Round of 16 exit.

England still has a question in goal and can be overrun in midfield by teams that can possess, but compared to the list of issues present in other sides, Capello's side is strong.

A final piece that will be intangible until the first kickoff:  This is the last go for a generation of players that includes Gerrard, Terry, Lampard, and Ferdinand.  This will also be the last Cup for David Beckham, one of the leaders in this set-up and a key link between their foreign manager and the squad.

Everything points to a very prepared, very motivated England squad.

United States - If there is one team that is more polarizing amongst analysts than England, it's the United States, whose quality is clouded by a shock summer win over Spain and winning the weakest non-Oceania region.

Let's talk about Spain first.

How informative is the Spain result?  Very.  It shows the U.S. has to potential to beat anybody, something that can not be forgotten.

However, there is the concept of a one-off:  the idea that this is a rare result, unlikely to be replicated - a once in a generation outcome.  While beating Spain in South Africa told the world the Yanks are capable of such feats, it fails to show those results can be expected.  That expectation can only come after a pattern of results, but friendly performances against Slovakia (0-1) and Denmark (0-3) hint the Spain result was a one-off.

Also informing us is their form at the end of qualifying.  After this summer's Gold Cup (CONCACAF's confederation championship won by Mexico, an event that played out as a B-level tournament), the U.S. had three consecutive disappointing results:  losing 2-1 in Mexico in a match the federation hyped; giving a poor performance in 2-1, home win against El Salvador; winning 1-0 at Port of Spain against a struggling Trinidad and Tobago, where the only goal was a 22-meter song from Ricardo Clark.

The United States followed that with a win in Honduras which may have been the most impressive road performance by any team in CONCACAF qualifying.  True, at the time, Honduras was in unfortunate political upheaval.  And true, Honduras was hard done by some freakish U.S. goals and was - on form - the better side.  Regardless, the United States got a result in what was, considering how qualifying had set-up, a near must-win match.  Honduras may not be respected internationally nor are they likely to get out of their South Africa group, but they are a strong side, they played well against the U.S. (except Noel Valladares), and the U.S. still got three points.

The United States would go on to win CONCACAF, yet they remain a highly flawed side.  They have no presence in the midfield (whether in possession or in defense), making them susceptible to being overrun by even modestly adept sides.  They have no means of attack beyond counter or set-pieces, and they have major lineup issues at both striker and defense.

Those lineup issues would be present regardless of health, but the States are going through a injury crisis.  Their best forward, Charlie Davies, is unlikely to be available for the World Cup after a myriad of injuries suffered in a car accident.  Their best defender, Oguchi Onyewu, is a question, being out until April with a knee injury.  Their strongest midfield options - Maurice Edu and the yet-to-be-capped Jermaine Jones - have not played at all for their clubs this season.  Jay DeMerit, Onyewu's partner, is struggling with a freak eye injury.

If the U.S. has a chance to advance, wings/forwards Clint Dempsey (Fulham) and Landon Donovan (Los Angeles Galaxy) will each need to be world-class players.  The U.S. will need multiple goals from each in addition to the odd tally from other sources.  Dempsey did score a goal at the last World Cup, while Donovan notched two in 2002.

Slovenia - Tactically, Slovenia is the best defensive team in the tournament.  You can make the argument for the North Koreans - another nation that has to use superior tactical acumen to make up a constant talent gap - but in big matches against Russia and Slovakia,

Slovenia has gone beyond the North Korean's ability to force a stalemate.  The Slovenes have consistently won matches against World Cup caliber sides.

Whenever you talk tactics and defensive prowess, you have to look to a squad's coach.  In taking both matches from group-winning Slovakia before completely out-managing Russia's Guus Hiddink, Matjaz Kek is making his case to be included amongst the world's elite coaches.  You see it in the way his players ardently keep their man in front of them.  You see it in Slovenia's unrelenting organization.  You see it in Kek's ability to set-up to counter into his opposition's greatest weakness, and you see it in his ability to find goals from a decidedly untalented squad.

Kek does this with a team representing a country whose population is somewhere between Houston's and Phoenix's.  It's an affluent nation, but it's small, not very athletics oriented, and those who do pursue sports are more likely to lace up skates than boots.  For a country of this size, getting to one World Cup (qualifying through Europe) would be astounding.  This is their second in three cycles.

Perhaps it is all those limitations that has forced Kek, a coach who has progress through the Slovene system with his players, to rely on being more organized than his opponents.  It's certainly worked, putting up second-best defensive record in European qualifying, but it belies a lack of goals.  Like the U.S., they are overly reliant on the counter, and while Kek's tactical acumen gives him an advantage over Bob Bradley, he lacks players like Dempsey and Donovan.

Their best scoring option is Milivoje Novakovič (Köln), who relies on the hard work of partner Zlatko Dedic (Bochum) and wide play from Robert Koren (West Bromwich Albion) and Aleksander Radosavljevič (Tom Tomsk) to create opportunities.  Kek is not afraid to play Miso Brecko (Köln) and Bojan Jokic (Sochaux) as attacking wing backs in a 4-4-2 that often functions as a diamond in the middle.  At the back, Udinese's Samir Handanovic is solid.

Amongst Kek's current starting XI, the Slovenes have regular players in the top divisions of Germany (four), France (two), Italy (one) and Russia (one).  The media in this market covers the Slovenes as unknowns, but there is a quality to Slovenia's anonymity that makes them a threat to advance.

Algeria - The Desert Foxes are another team whose talent will surprise those who have not seen them play.  

While they are certainly one of the less-talented sides in a tournament, Algeria is far from a push-over.  Doing the same top-division-breakdown we did for Slovenia, Algeria has regular players in England (three), Germany (three), France (two), Italy (two), Portugal (one) and one with Rangers in Scotland.  

While it can be messy to look solely at club representation as a barometer of talent, this messy guide sees Algeria at least comparable with both Slovenia and the United States.

Their leading scoring threat, Rafik Saifi, is not one of those players playing in Europe, having just moved from France to the Qatari league to cash in on the last days of his career (he's 34).  He partners up-top with Siena's Abdelkader Ghezzal to lead Rabah Saadane's set-up.  

The midfield is anchored by Lorient's Yazid Mansouri - their captain and pivot - with Karim Ziani (Wolfsburg) as his more-dynamic foil. The back line that allowed four goals in seven qualifiers features Madjid Bougherra (Rangers), Nadir Belhadj (Portsmouth) and Antar Yahia (Bochum).

While those are just names to most, each player has a similar profile to Slovene and American counterparts, and like the Slovenes - who proved their metal in knocking out Russia - the Algerians have shown the ability to get results under pressure.

Actually, "under pressure" is a euphemism  There as no single performance more informative of a team's character than Algeria beating Egypt on November 18 in Khartoum.

Algeria, four days earlier, had gone to Cairo needing to stay within one goal (or win) to get CAF's Group C World Cup spot.  The night before the match, their team bus was attacked outside their hotel, with bricks thrown through the windows causing multiple players to play the next day with their heads bandaged.  

It was an extension of a heated footballing rivalry that stretches back to 1989, when violence ensued after Egypt's playoff win over Algeria in Cairo.  That win sent Egypt to the 1990 World Cup.  Neither nation has qualified since.

In this year's match in Cairo, Amr Zaki scored early for the Pharoahs, but the Foxes held out until a chance goal off of sloppy play in second half stoppage time gave Egypt a 2-0 win, forcing the November 18 playoff.

Algeria was devastated by their near-miss qualification, upset that the match was even played in the wake of the previous night's violence, yet had to go to the Sudan and play Egypt again - a win-and-in match on what was supposed to be a neutral pitch.

Even with all the obstacles (and a hotly contested, physical opening to the match), Saadane remarkably got his players focused on the match, and when Antar Yahia scored in the 40th minute, the Algerians had the goal which would put them back into the World Cup.

It is difficult to imagine any group stage match carrying as much pressure as that playoff in Khartoum.  With Algeria grouped with nations who, on a similar level, can win the group's second spot, experiences like Cairo and Khartoum could prove decisive in determining who advances.

Worthless Predictions

June 12, Rustenburg:  England 2, United States 0 - A couple of opening game mistakes give the U.S. some half-chances, but a Capello team that has been looking forward to this match for over six months does not come close to losing.  Tim Howard, focused to play well against some of the same faces he sees in league, has a strong day, but the U.S. ends up looking ineffectual.

June 13, Polokwane:  Slovenia 1, Algeria 0 - Slovenia converts one counter in a match where the Foxes can never unlock the Slovene defense.  Kek has his team focused towards three points, with the small country's win dispelling the notion that all African nations - even ones near 5,000 miles from Cape Town - will have a home-pitch-advantage.

June 18, Cape Town:  England 4, Algeria 1 - After losing to Slovenia, the Algerians know they will need at least a point from England to survive.  Unfortunately, their fight plays against them as England maintains their shape and continuously exploits the Foxes.  We see some of the same potency in attack that the Lions exhibited in qualifying, leading to a final score more indicative of the circumstances than the relative qualities of the sides.

June 18, Johannesburg:  Slovenia 0, United States 0 - While the U.S.'s loss to England would suggest they should be the aggressors, the Yanks stay conservative knowing they can get to their targeted four points even if they draw against Slovenia.  In a battle of two sides reliant on the counter, it's the Slovenes who generate the match's best chances.  Lack of quality in the final third relegates this to a bore draw.

June 23, Pretoria:  Algeria 2, United States 1 - With nothing to play for but pride, Algeria hopes to show their 4-1 loss to England is a aberration.  The United States, on the other hand, know that a win may put them through.  Unfortunately, the U.S. has a poor record in when trying to close out World Cup group play, while Algeria's sense of pride and occasion was on display in Khartoum.  Had this match been the first game of the tournament, I might have picked the U.S.  Ultimately, this result may not matter:

June 23, Port Elizabeth:  England 0, Slovenia 0 - Capello's team is already through but wants the number one seed.  Slovenia needs only a point to eliminate the United States.  Slovenia starts conservative, slowly bunkers, while England stays disciplined.  Neither side dispels the notion of an implicit agreement between them.  Both go through, with the Slovenes doing so with a remarkable one goal scored.

Group C GP W D L GF GA Pts
England 3 2 1 0 6 1 7
Slovenia 3 1 2 0 1 0 5
Algeria 3 1 0 2 3 6 3
United States 3 0 1 2 1 4 1
Poll
Who will win Group C in South Africa?
Algeria
20 votes
England
128 votes
Slovenia
6 votes
United States
74 votes

228 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 34 comments |

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A couple points that I think should be taken into consideration re: USA

That final match against Algeria will see the US making yet another short bus ride to their match, again at altitude, while Algeria will have a two hour flight from Cape Town and will be going from just about sea level to altitude.

Losing Davies is obviously a major knock on the Yanks and I think it leaves us with a very tough look at the squad. Dempsey has been very good for Fulham of late and has spent time up front, where we could see him in South Africa. Dempsey playing off of Altidore gives them a decent looking attack and if Jermain Jones or Maurice Edu get healthy, Bradley will be able to push higher and play in a role far more similar to the one he played with Heerenveen and with ’Gladbach, giving the attack some more bite. Of course, this is all speculative and I think it highlights the point that while any prediction six months into the future is tough, predicting the US may be tougher than any other team going to South Africa.

Formerly ryebreadraz

by Ryan Rosenblatt on Dec 17, 2009 8:12 PM EST reply actions  

Great points, Ryan ...

… and I want to make one thing clear, because I do anticipate people will see where I’ve picked the U.S. and assume I’m anti-USMNT.

a.) I’m not,
b.) My scenario, above, would be COMPLETELY different if the U.S. can get a goal against Slovenia, win, force England to have to take Match Day 3 seriously, and we could see a team (the U.S.?) get through on 3 points,
c.) I’m working as close to the “now” as possible. That’s why I picked a huge FAIL for France, and that’s why I think it will be tough for the U.S.,
d.) if the US’s order of matches were different, there are scenarios where I would have picked them to go through with up-to five points

by Richard Farley on Dec 17, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

If We Still had Pathetic Has Beens Going to the Tournament

I might see where you would estimate that result for the US, but the US has consistently played teams to Slovenia and Algeria’s caliber very well.

I guess it just makes that first game all the more important.

Its the first game, the tournament hasn’t started, England has no momentum, and US thinks, hey last time we were here we beat Spain and were half a game away from beating Brazil. I’m going to predict even odds based upon the US’s comfort playing in South Africa and other 2nd world nations giving them an edge over England’s superior talent depth in that first game. In fact US has never not advanced in a World Cup or beaten England outside of Europe :).

If that game results in a tie, then should be easy street from there for both US and England.

by Cool Dudes on Dec 17, 2009 11:29 PM EST reply actions  

But ...

… isn’t Slovakia at Slovenia’s level? Slovenia actually beat them twice in qualifying. The U.S. looked pretty bad against them, IMO. It was, however, one match, and a friendly at that. But the U.S. looked very bad in this year’s qualifiers against El Salvador and T&T. Algeria and Slovenia are both much better than them.

In general, the “1” point total looks bad, above, but it’s the nature of three matches – a small sample size – that things can easily change. Look at how close I have the two matches with Slovenia and Algeria. It’s not too difficult to see a slight tweak drastically improving the U.S.’s position.

Regarding the England match: I just don’t see how the U.S. wins that one other than alluding to the natural variance inherent in sport. Fabio Capello’s record is not one where he has the more talented team, time to prepare, and he loses a big match. It absolutely could happen, but remember, this is the opening match, and the U.S. opened against Brazil very poorly in South Africa.

I could see the U.S. winning each of the following matches. I just don’t see England happening.

by Richard Farley on Dec 18, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I just don’t see how the U.S. wins that one other than alluding to the natural variance inherent in sport.

You mean unless the US scores more goals than England? :)

by Cool Dudes on Dec 19, 2009 2:26 AM EST up reply actions  

That's a much better way to put it ...

… and would have made this article much more succinct.

by Richard Farley on Dec 19, 2009 8:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Man, What a Downer...

I was really hoping for some “homer-enriched” optimism for the USMNT’s chances. Geez Richard, where’s the (blind) loyalty for the lads? Where’s the “never say die” spirit that won the war for the colonies? Where’s the inbred hatred for all things British? I mean, really…

Editor’s Note: Anything in this post resembling sarcasm, probably is.

by DissidentAggressor on Dec 18, 2009 1:29 AM EST reply actions  

Just setting England up for epic failure

Its an English thing. They don’t like mediocrity in their failure.

by Cool Dudes on Dec 18, 2009 2:05 AM EST up reply actions  

They actually prefer mediocrity ...

… in their tea. If we were having a Tea World Cup, England might barely make it out of their group.

by Richard Farley on Dec 18, 2009 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

I did detect the sarcasm ...

… and well played, DA.

I do expect to get a good deal of negative feedback on this, but I’ve been a bit surprised, thus far, that all the credible feedback has been respectful, so I’m very happy.

There is, unfortunately, a notable pressure – almost expectation, at this point – to be “homer-enriched,” which really does a disservice to good analysts that feel the United States will go through (a potentially viable conclusion). But as you can see in the breakdown above, there are numerous reasons to think otherwise, not the least of which being the how the team set-ups for South Africa.

I read your comment and laughed at the sarcasm. Thanks for bringing some levity. I’m actually very encouraged that this site, so young, is attracting consistent contributors like yourself and others. It makes dealing with the occasional nasty email completely worth it.

by Richard Farley on Dec 18, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Personally, I like the realist point of view.

It allows me to temper my emotions and come to terms with our lackluster performances as of late, even though some of the matches mentioned above were friendlies. That way, if the US does advance out of the group, it will be a pleasant surprise. If they do not, then it is as expected and I won’t need to cry into my beer.

In a weird way, I also like negative predictions about the US. They always seem to perform better when classified as the underdog.

by misfit15 on Dec 18, 2009 11:59 AM EST reply actions  

Great point about underdogs ...

… the U.S. does seem to have trouble performing as a frontrunner, but they seem better as underdogs. To me, that speaks as much to the team’s potential as it does it’s problems. Whenever you see uneven performances from a side (at least, on the international level), you have to ask why the coach is allowing such variance. I don’t see much variance from Dunga, Trapattoni, Loew, or Capello’s clubs, but I see a ton from Domenech and Queiroz’s.

I obviously agree on being a realist, and I can see the point of view of somebody who see my prediction (seven months out) as pessimistic. After all how much worse can it get? (answer: one point). I do want to again (overcompensate) emphasize that in this prediction the U.S. is not as far off as the final table would hint.

But this is how the three-match group works. You can be pretty close, but the results will show significant distance.

by Richard Farley on Dec 18, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Or to quote Hugh Grant on the Daily Show

I thought football was a girls game in America.

Blame my wife!
Waiting until August 2010

by sir eccles on Dec 18, 2009 2:15 PM EST reply actions  

That's really funny ...

… if you imagine Hugh Grant’s inquisitively-posh accent saying it.

I really need to start watching the Daily Show more. I’m a bit … not-well-rounded … during soccer season.

by Richard Farley on Dec 18, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

That ...

… was well done by Hugh. Nothing like some good natured, clever riving.

“Something’s gone wrong. Something’s gone wrong. There’s too much money in our game, John.”

I suppose it’s funnier when Hugh says it.

“If we beat you, it really does put the final nail in your empire.” – Stewart

Thanks for linking that!

by Richard Farley on Dec 18, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

USA

They could win the group or not register a point and I don’t think I would be surprised. While the US does not play well in Europe – see Germany and France World Cups, they play better everywhere else – see South Korea/Japan World Cup, US World Cup and Confederations Cup.

Never mistake effort for achievement.

by Esteban d' Amur on Dec 18, 2009 3:33 PM EST reply actions  

Completely agree ...

… that’s what makes these three-match groups difficult to predict, but I will point out that the U.S.‘s combined group stage record of those three good tournaments you mention is 3-2-4, still losing more matches than they’re winning.

The U.S. has the capability. Hopefully, they’ll be healthy enough to show it.

by Richard Farley on Dec 18, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Great analysis!

Being American, I also find it tough to discuss our prospects without seeming biased one way or the other.

I agree that we will finish 3rd or 4th in the group this summer. I think you have to view the Confed Cup’s Spain result as an anomaly and Brazil result in the final as a best-case anomaly (that we still lose btw).

Moreoever, the fact that (a) we play a rather straightforward style that does not create consistent scoring chances and (b) do not have the ability to possess the ball/maintain a lead when we are fortunate enough to capitalize on those few chances…well, it makes for a difficult tournament run.

That said, anything can happen and you can bet I’ll be calling in sick and supporting our boys every minute!

Enjoy the holidays!

by jyj on Dec 18, 2009 5:00 PM EST reply actions  

This comes to the same conclusion

with none of the rationale or basis on actual events in real life.

by Cool Dudes on Dec 19, 2009 2:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I have to challenge a statement here:

“If the U.S. has a chance to advance, wings/forwards Clint Dempsey (Fulham) and Landon Donovan (Los Angeles Galaxy) will each need to be world-class players. The U.S. will need multiple goals from each in addition to the odd tally from other sources.”

You’ll forgive me, but these “team X needs Y to happen” always raise immediate questions in my mind as to whether they are real analysis or just limb-climbing. It’s clear in this case you haven’t gamed this one out.

To wit:

This almost certainly isn’t true. You’re saying that the US must get at least 2 goals from Donovan, 2 from Dempsey, and at least 1 from somewhere else.

But let’s look at what actually happened last time out. In WC 2006, no less than 6 teams from last World Cup advanced from the group stage with fewer goals scored than you’re claiming the US will need.

And that’s before I question your assertion (effectively) that the rest of the team can only generate one goal. I say you’re effectively asserting this because, if they can generate 2 goals, and Donovan and Dempsey can only combine for 3 (failing your ‘they both score multiple’ test), that would bring the total to 5. And in 2006, 5 goals adds another 6 teams to the total number that qualified.

To re-summarize, 6 of the 16 teams that advanced did so with no more than 4 goals, and 12 of the 16 teams that advanced did so with no more than 5. Additionally, only one team scored at least 4 goals and failed to qualify, that being Ivory Coast, who scored 5 but allowed 6. That means 4 goals was enough 85% of the time.

And this shouldn’t have been any surprise, in a 3 match group, where 4 points tends to offer a coin-flip chance of advancing and 5 is enough to be a real surprise if you don’t. And why would this group be an exception— is there a single team in it you wouldn’t describe as ‘conservative’? (Certainly, you did describe three of the four of them that way, and I doubt you’d call Algeria free-wheeling).

No, the US doesn’t have the tall offensive order you describe here as being necessary. And I think if anything that statement tends to detract from the defense the US will need to play advance. I think that’s the case the majority of the time in the WC, but all the more so for this team in this group.

'Gentlemen' he said,
'I don't need your organization,
I've shined your shoes,
moved your mountains and marked your cards,
but Eden is burning.
Either get ready for elimination,
or else your heart must have the courage,
for the changing of the guards.'

by Sgc on Dec 18, 2009 5:33 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Great thoughts, SGC ...

… great research, just a couple of things:

"You’ll forgive me, but these “team X needs Y to happen” always raise immediate questions in my mind …"

And it should, and I’m glad you’ve done the leg-work to question it.

"And that’s before I question your assertion (effectively) that the rest of the team can only generate one goal."

No, I don’t say that, at all. Do I? If so, let me know. I say they will need "the odd tally" which is neither clearly singular nor exhaustive.

But overall, you’re right, in that it’s not 100% clear that the U.S will need 5 goals. I agree with that, and I also conceded that I didn’t think out that statement as much as I thought out other pieces in the article.

Almost everything in these pieces works on probability. If an analyst says “England is not going to beat the United States,” do you take him to mean “England has a 0% chance of meeting the U.S.?”

With my scenario (above) … if you add a goal for the U.S. in the Slovenia match and another two in the Algeria match, that gets them to 4, and it could get them through on differential.

So great job pointing that out.

I’m going to stick by my statement, but thank you for pointing out the problems with it. Caveat, everybody: a lot of analysis like this is better thought of working on probabilities. I see that the U.S. will probably need Dempsey and Donovan to be exceptional. The result of that would probably be mulitiple goals from each.

by Richard Farley on Dec 18, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

And BTW ...

… if anybody else sees irregularities like Sgc found, post ’em! It only helps. For example, the research Sgc did to refute my statement? Large stuff right there!

I’m going back through my notes to see what went wrong, but I think it was just me stretching while writing, asking the question “how could the US get through” and then not writing as well as I could.

Good stuff, Sgc.

by Richard Farley on Dec 18, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually like your prediction

because it fired me up, and that’s exactly what the US team needs.

by Cool Dudes on Dec 19, 2009 2:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Would greatly disappoint me

but it does help me temper my expectations some to see stuff like this.

Once June hits, though, I’ll probably be widely overly-optimistic once again.

by I need more Esteban on Dec 18, 2009 6:10 PM EST reply actions  

And once June hits ...

… the U.S. may be much improved, as players like Edu and Jones may be in the team, Onyewu might look like he’s fully fit, and somebody like Robbie Findley or Robbie Rogers might have stepped up.

I will be updating my projections 3-4 times between now and June. I won’t be writing these things up again, but I will be posting updates along with my reasons to adjust.

by Richard Farley on Dec 18, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry to be pendatic, but England play a 4-2-3-1

With Lampard and Barry as the 2, Gerrard on the left of the 3, Rooney in the center, and the winger, who should be Aaron Lennon on the right, with Heskey up front. Gerrard and Rooney switch quite easily, and Heskey can also drop back which is why the formation works for England.

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Dec 19, 2009 6:02 AM EST reply actions  

I disagree with this ...

… but I see your point. I find it difficult to call it a 4-2-3-1 for a number of reasons.

by Richard Farley on Dec 19, 2009 8:01 AM EST up reply actions  

it is a little unbalanced

Because Gerrard moves inside. But it definately is not a 4-4-2

"We're investigating the investigative procedure of the investigation of Tony Bernazard"---Omar Minaya (he really didn't say it but he would"

by firejerrynow on Dec 19, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Your contention ...

… is a.) Barry and Lampard are best described as defensive, deep-sitting midfielders, and b.) Rooney is best described as a midfielder.

I can’t accept either of those.

If you wanted to call is a 4-4-1-1, I wouldn’t argue.

A 4-2-3-1 misrepresents Rooney and is mischaracterizes the central midfield, IMO.

by Richard Farley on Dec 19, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

This would be a good subject ...

… for a whole article. I think we’re both right, depending on your point of view. I would certainly disagree with “it definitely is not a 4-4-2.”

I’ve noticed over the last couple of years that people, particularly the press from the Isles, are going a little crazy with their 4-4-2s, their 4-2-3-1s, their 4-2-2-2s, their 4-3-1-2s.

by Richard Farley on Dec 19, 2009 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

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